Gothic "Sub-Subcultures"?

[Spitfire]

How relevent and how real are the so called "sub--subcultures" of goth?

• Glam
• Cyber
• Perky
• Death Rocker
• Uber
• Romantic

Okay, so you get the idea. Bassically the littler deffinitions amongst the larger subculture. What I want to know is which exist and which are fabricated by mainstream culture, the media, teeny-boppers, etc. Are they really all that different and seperate from one another as many people will claim they are, or when all is said an done is it more like how a person will act differently when they are in different moods?

Add anything you want to say on this topic here. Tell me that nothing up there is real, or was started as a joke, add some, explain why they are different and why they aren't. Is it country or region specific or is it like that internationally? Do you know?

[Ickle Fluffy Wolfy]

Well, I would say that the various 'sub-subcultures' are more like different facets of the gothic personality as a whole and feature, to a greater or lesser extent depending upon the individual, as part of the ingredients that go to making the complete gothic animal. Partly I think it is generally down to mood, though an individual maybe more prone to, say, being a 'perky-goth' than another, I think its more of an aspect of the gothic person than a whole seperate sub-genre in itself.

[Wilted Rose]

I think these "sub-subcultures" are just an example of those in the subculture taking it in their own direction..or something.

[onu]

I don't think they exist as sub-subcultures. There's no meetings, forums, or otherwise places where perky-goths congregate. I don't think of them as cultures, just terms invented when refering to different goths. Saying Peter is a "geeky-goth" isn't to imply that he's part of a larger group of geeky goths, but rather that he's a bit geek, while also being goth. When speaking to someone as if they did not know him, we establish a base of interests, opinions, and appearance by placing him within the gothic subculture, then further describe a heightened affinity for technology and the like by adding the "geeky" modifier.

Thus, a glam-goth, is supposedly a goth who's primary interest is their own appearance.

A perky goth would merely be a goth who isn't going out of their way to be emotionless, morbid, sad, or other emotions <i>typically</i> (but incorrectly) associated with the subculture.

Romantic goths, so far as I can tell, when spoken in the sense of personality merely describe a typical goth. Romance's dramas, highs, lows, it's general fantastic gamut of highly contrasted emotions compliment the goth stereotype. In the sense of clothing, it of course, refers to the "Romance" age. Their clothing style is more likely to be Victorian inspired.

I don't want to touch the Death Rockers term. That one has too many different definitions depending on who you're talking to.

But, yeah, that's my opinion. Some of the terms are somewhat offensive, some of them are just a little descriptive. I'm under the impression though that people that go out of their way to define themselves as "glam-goths" or generally use any of these terms as a way to noticably seperate themselves from the subculture, as if they want to be a part of the subculture, but don't want to be associated with it, I generally regard those as posers. If they were really interested in the subculture they wouldn't fear the stereotypes we walk into this knowing about.

[eresh]

They are real here...the goth sub-subcultures (well here in the netherlands anyway)
But not so much as to stereotypes of A goth, more so in musical ways.
At one point there began to develop a seperate scene with cyber parties and forums , the same here with industrial, neofolk and deathrock.
They all have their own parties.

Luckily there still are plenty of mixed genres parties as I like some variation!

[Spitfire]

Yeah, since I originally wrote this thread I've noticed that myself. To some extent, people who gravitate toward a certain sound tend to gravitate toward a similar look, but that I think might have more to do with similar tastes than anything else.

[Ickle Fluffy Wolfy]

People of a similar taste gravitate towards each other, and then, from within that group people explore in different directions and take like-minded souls with them, hopefully, whilst still maintaining the integrity of the original group. I guess trouble may begin if those who are being progressive in their explorations move too far from the original hub, though the world of goth is a liberal one and can incoporate quite a wide diversity.

Following on from that, a question that somewhat intrigues me is; at what point does a group of like-minded individuals become a definable subculture? Is there some kind of point-of-no-return in the process or is it too amorphous to really say?

[eresh]

A point of no return, nah, I dont think it should be/is that strict.
Music scenes are "moving"/evolving all the time, it's natural I think.
Resistance is futile
New things can be good, clinging to hold on to a certain scene to stay the way it is will not work.
Though, heritage is everything!

Erm, now I forgot where I was going with this

[Spitfire]

There's some sort of weird balance between "old school" and "new school" with any sbuculture that must be struck to keep the culture from transforming into something new entirely.

However, I don't think anyone could actually describe this balance to another person.

I could be way off base though.

[Jackpot]

it's going WAAAAY too much into catogorisation.

yes, they're different, but still based around the same thing. But they're all still gothic.

[Spitfire]

They exist though and in places where goth is a bigger deal actually are a lot more relevent.

That and it's something to talk about.

As for as how important are they? Well how about the fact that the "fetish types" and "cyber types" tend to both snub and be snubbed by the romanti-goths and other more "traditional" goth factions. Even none of the other categories I listed are important there is a visable divide along that line.

[Jackpot]

And damn straight they should, fucking traditional goths, and their gothicness.... oh wait.

I suppose you got a kind of point, but thats the sort of point where they latch off and become something else, like birds leaving the nest, or children selling the family business and buying a ferrari...

I'm not very tactful today, am i?

[Spitfire]

Well not necessarily.

Some of the basic points of the subculture are shared, though mainly just the styles of dress are similar and we both listen to the same music, but often there is a vaguely similar mind set even if we don't want to admit it to ourselves.

I think it comes down to individual interpretation of what it means to be "goth."